How to succeed as a new sustainability manager

Libby: 00:00:00

They're always very willing to have that conversation and work

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with me to, to see what we can do

to improve things in terms of ESG.

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Of course, not all colleagues are like

that, but having those individuals

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that aren't on your side is actually

probably just as helpful as having

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others on your side because you learn

more about, okay, what's, what frictions

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there, why don't you want to, you

know, try and change things or explore

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how we can do things differently.

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This is leadership for

sustainability from Realise Earth.

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We focus on the people side of

sustainability to help you make

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greater progress on sustainability

in, and through, your organization.

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I'm Osbert Lancaster.

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And I'm so glad you're here with me

today along with our guest Libby Kerman.

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Libby stepped into the newly created

role of sustainability manager with

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Lincolnshire Housing Partnership

just a year after university.

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Now, two years on, she reflects on

what she's achieved and learned.

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I started by asking Libby what

she's most proud of having

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achieved in those two years.

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Libby: I think off the top of my head

straight away, the thing that comes to

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mind is our successful application to

the Social Housing Decarbonisation Fund.

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We put joint funding into ultimately

increase the energy efficiency

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of our customers' homes, reduce

their bills, and of course,

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overall carbon emissions as well.

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So I played a role in bringing together

all the data initially facilitating,

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those conversations, sparking the

interest of the directors and other

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kind of senior leadership as well to

get the appetite to drive this forward.

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So we secured just over 8 million pounds

through that fund and then we put forward

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just over eight million pounds as well.

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So a 16 million pound project.

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So within that, we are installing

external wall insulation to over 730

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properties, which is absolutely fantastic.

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And then also installing air source

heat books to a further 82 properties

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as well, which again is just fantastic.

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And then that work, not only It's expected

to reduce our carbon emissions, it's also

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expected to reduce customer energy bills

by around 380 pounds per year as well.

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So it's a huge, huge impact on, on the

customers' lives, which is just fantastic.

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Osbert: that's an amazing achievement.

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So any others you want to highlight

just now and we'll dig into them a

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little bit more detail afterwards?

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Libby: I think probably a second one is

more of an overarching strategy piece.

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So I recently produced our new ESG

framework, so Environmental Social

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Governance, I'm sure everyone that listens

to this podcast knows that already.

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But yeah, I introduced that framework,

which overtook our previous ESG strategy.

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So when I started at Lincolnshire

Housing Partnership, we had an existing

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ESG strategy, but it became evident

as I was progressing in my role

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that that really needed a refresh.

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So I spent a lot of time working

with people all across the business.

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So we have around 400 colleagues, so you

know, not as big as other organizations,

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but still Still a lot of people to have

these discussions with, obviously had

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these conversations and then produced

this refreshed framework or strategy

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as others may, may recognize it as.

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And that was just a really proud moment

for me, because not only did I think it

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was an improvement on the last one, but

I was also very happy with how colleagues

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engaged in that process as well.

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And I really feel as though we had

something very comprehensive, because

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I don't know if other, sustainability

managers feel the same, but it feels

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as though, you know, we have our

net zero roadmap over here, we have

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recommendations for our annual carbon

reports over here, and then we have our

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annual delivery plans that, you know, take

place across every team in the business.

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And I just didn't feel as

though we had anything.

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substantial that really brought all

of those together to drive change

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forward and kind of communicate

that to colleagues and customers.

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so yeah, that, that launched

a couple of months ago.

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I'm very, very proud of that.

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I think it came out really

well personally anyway.

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Osbert: Excellent.

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And anything else you want to sort

of highlight now there's a huge

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amount there already, but if there's

anything so different or whatever

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you think, yeah, a different angle.

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Libby: Yeah, I think

those are my, my big two.

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I think we, you know, we've done other

things looking at our green spaces because

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I think as a social housing landlord,

and I mean, rightly so, a lot of our

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focus is always on our 12,000 properties.

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but I've really tried to start

shifting our mindset to ensure that

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as a business, we are also seeing

our green spaces as valuable as well.

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so we've, we've introduced quite

a lot of, KPIs around that.

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So we introduce five new

biodiversity sites every single year.

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We do quite a bit of work with

organizations like Lincolnshire Wildlife

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Trust to enhance our knowledge and

ensure that, you know, we're constantly

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improving these sites because it's not as

easy as I thought it was when I started.

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So there's been a lot of, a

lot of lessons learned there.

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But I think, yeah, me pushing that,

having some brilliant colleagues, of

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course, within the asset team, within

the business, and then, you know, things

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like biodiversity net gain, pushing

that from a legal perspective as well.

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It's slowly turning the tide, I

think, on how we're seeing our green

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spaces, which is also really exciting.

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Osbert: Excellent.

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Excellent.

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So yeah, is there anything you'd

like to pick out and sort of talk

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us through how the thing started

and particularly who and what helped

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you achieve that place you got to?

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Libby: I think with the big energy

efficiency investment, so the social

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housing decarbonisation fund, I think

what was hugely helpful on that was

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we had a bit of an influx of some

new colleagues across the business.

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So we had our new corporate head of

property start, as he's now known.

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We also had an investment

manager come in and lots of other

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people within the asset team.

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And I think these very ambitious, driven.

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individuals coming in really gave me

the courage and confidence to shout more

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about this and push this forward even

more because I'd come out of university,

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so I was 20 when I started in the

position, I was reading all of this, I was

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speaking to consultants, I was speaking

to other sustainability professionals,

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so I had a rough idea about what we

needed to do with our customers homes,

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but then delivering that and saying

this to the directors and the CEOs,

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you know, someone who, you know, I am

very still naive and I'm happy to admit

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that it was just quite nerve wracking.

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And I was actually listening to

another one of your podcast episodes

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that's talks about courage as

well, and the importance of that.

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And I think those new colleagues coming

in and also seeing the importance

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and value in sustainability in.

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an energy efficiency investment like

this one I've just been speaking about.

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Yeah, it just gave me the confidence

to shout about it even more.

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And because I had that backing

behind me, it just meant that

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we could push it forward.

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And we had a lot more people, you

know, shouting from the rooftops about

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the benefits that this could bring,

which was, yeah, that, that was huge.

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I think the importance of having

those high level individuals that,

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that can help kind of fight your

corner for you is really important.

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Osbert: how did that come about?

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You know, they've come newly into role.

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You, did you sort of go

out and approach them?

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How did you do that?

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Or did they come to you?

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What sort of turned their

potential into reality?

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Libby: Yeah, so they, they came into

that position, and one of the, the

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individuals, our corporate head, he

actually interviewed me for my permanent

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position that I'm currently in, so he

came in, and then I think a month later

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I secured this permanent position, so,

we, we kind of built a relationship

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up from, you know, there anyway.

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And at the time I was sat

within the property division.

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So I was sat kind of beneath

him within the business anyway.

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and I was just very, very fortunate

that he came in with a passion for

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sustainability, for ESG, for reducing

customer bills and really seeing the

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value in retrofit and the investments

that, that we can, you know, divert

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to this area of the business.

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So to be honest, I was kind of

knocking on an open door when

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it came to, to that individual.

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So I felt very lucky when he came in.

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I was just so excited, you know,

that the initial conversations we

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had, I just knew that whatever I

brought to the table, he would listen.

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and it's not that I didn't have that

before, but I think having someone

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Like that just gave me the courage

to shout about it more and really

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highlight the benefits that it

could bring to, to us as a business.

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Osbert: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And how about, in relation to

developing the ESG framework that

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you've talked about, what was,

what was really helpful there?

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Mm

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Libby: Yeah, so I think a

few things to be honest.

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As a business, Lincolnship, Housing

Partnership or LHP as we call them, they

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are fantastic at developing colleagues.

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So they put so much kind of investment

into learning and development, which is

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you know, one of the reasons that I really

enjoy working here, and I was fortunate

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enough to be placed as a winner on,

it's called the top 30 under 30 program.

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It's like a development program for young

people within the Humberside region.

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and I went on that and it was a 12 month

development program, and that absolutely

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made my confidence skyrocket again.

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And it is all about confidence, I

think, because coming out of university,

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having that backing and having that,

development opportunity, whether

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that's to do with my communication

skills or, you know, presentation

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skills or so many different things.

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Having that behind me and knowing that the

judges on that recognize that within me

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as well, just progress that even further.

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But then I also think within the

business, I sit within what we call

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the culture team at the minute.

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So I sit alongside our

communications team.

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And initially I thought that was a bit of

an odd fit perhaps, but actually I think

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I've come to recognize that having such a

close relationship with the communications

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team is so beneficial for so many ways.

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So I work obviously very closely with

the property team looking at energy

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efficiency, but on the flip side of

that, that really isn't as impactful

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if we don't have those communication

specialists to actually tell that

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story to our colleagues and customers.

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So I think building those networks

and relationships, not just externally

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through that development program, but

also the, yeah, the colleagues internally,

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and then having that, that support

has just been absolutely fantastic.

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Osbert: You mentioned the, is it

the, Head of Corporate Operations.

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Libby: Oh yeah, so he, his title

is now Corporate Head of property

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Osbert: He came in, he had a really

strong interest in sustainability

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and that was like, you know, a

real opportunity to work together.

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What about other colleagues?

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Wasn't that a case that there was lots of

other people interested in sustainability

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and that was obvious at the start?

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Or did it just come out when

you started talking to them?

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Libby: Yeah, to be honest, when I

started my position, I actually, I

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think I'm usually quite an optimistic

person, but I started just thinking

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that I'm going to come in, everyone's

going to find me really irritating.

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It's a lot of change, you know, things

are good as they are, but actually the

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more conversations I have with people.

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So when I first started, I just made

a very strong effort to put calls

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in with as many different people as

possible, to try and be present in

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the office, just to try and catch

different, different colleagues, just

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to, just to start conversations really.

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And once you start having these

conversations with people, the

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vast majority are very open to

conversations about sustainability,

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which I've found absolutely fantastic.

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Something I've launched

since starting at LHP is our

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sustainability ambassador group.

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So I wanted to have a platform that

would allow these, It's particularly

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passionate individuals, you know, that

really have an interest in the topic to

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come together monthly to talk about it.

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I'll give them a bit more

information about what I'm up to.

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We have external speakers coming

in to ensure that our knowledge is

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constantly being developed and that's

been a really, really popular group.

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We get quite a good turnout every

single month, quite a lot of

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interest ideas being thrown in there.

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But even if people don't

want to commit to that.

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I've actually found that when I have

a conversation with them, maybe it's

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just because I work with such lovely

people, but they're always very willing

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to have that conversation and, you know,

work with me to, to see what we can

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do to improve things in terms of ESG.

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Of course, not all

colleagues are like that.

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You know, people that have worked for

the business for a long time, things,

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you know, you know, what they're doing

works, but having those individuals

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that aren't on your side is actually

probably just as helpful as having

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others on your side because you learn

more about, okay, what's, what frictions

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there, why don't you want to, you

know, try and change things or explore

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how we can do things differently.

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So those often aren't the most

fun conversations, but they're

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probably the more useful ones.

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Osbert: So tell me more about

that though, how did that go?

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What were those conversations like?

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Libby: I think probably a lot of, not

friction, because I think that's probably

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the wrong word to say, but where I've

maybe come up against some barriers.

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One example could probably be with

our green spaces I mentioned earlier.

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We have a lot of green spaces at LHP

and actually diversifying those and

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trying to bring people on side as to why

exploring rewilding or looking at other

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things that that we could do to really

try and enhance those green spaces would

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be beneficial can be quite difficult and

that's the same with our customers as

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well but you do have to understand it

so our customers pay a service charge

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if we're leaving places wild it's almost

like what we're paying for kind of thing

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so you've got to listen to to why you're

kind of having that that resistance I

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guess so that that's definitely you One,

one area that has been more challenging.

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But then I think bringing in, you know,

people like the Lincolnshire Wildlife

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Trust to bring in their expertise.

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I think going back and reviewing

perhaps where we've tried rewilding

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or, wildflower seed planting in the

past and assessing that, position

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or site that we've selected.

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So why didn't that work?

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Was, did it have too much

footfall in that area?

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Is there a different, you know,

area we can choose to focus on?

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That's really helpful, but

definitely that is one.

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But as I say, we are getting

there and the colleagues in

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the asset team are fantastic.

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They're, they're really helpful

in pushing that forward.

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And I'd also say possibly

EV chargers as well.

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EV chargers is quite a hot topic at

the minute in the housing sector.

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So we have obviously our offices for

internal charging, but then we also

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have quite a lot of say sheltered

schemes, so apartments, flats,

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things like that with big car parks.

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So understanding how we can introduce

That with lots of legal implications, but

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then we've also got customers asking if

they can have them, which is brilliant.

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So we want to progress that when we've

got those on side, but actually the

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different, as I said, legal implications,

the infrastructural implications

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of that is just quite challenging.

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So I think when I'm having these

difficult conversations with colleagues,

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it's not so much that they point blank,

disagree with what I'm trying to do.

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It's the fact that it's very

complex, and you have to consider

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so many different things.

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And when people are so busy just trying

to get on with their day job, which, you

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know, colleagues across LHP, they're very

busy and do a fantastic job, when I'm

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there knocking on their door asking to

add something else onto that, that's where

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the challenges come in, and that's why I

have to be understanding of those as well.

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Osbert: So, what learned

from that process?

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What are you doing differently than

you would perhaps doing earlier on?

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Libby: I think I'm still

definitely a work in progress.

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As I said, I've definitely got a lot

of learning and development to do,

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but I think one thing when I initially

started at LHP, I would have maybe

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suggested an idea and if one colleague

was maybe not too welcoming of that,

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I'd be like, okay, it doesn't matter.

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It's fine.

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You know better.

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but now, I'm think, I think

anyway I'm getting much better

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at pushing back a bit more.

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So okay, if one person says

they're not keen on that idea or

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it just wouldn't work, I'm more

open to pushing back on that.

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So okay, why wouldn't it work?

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Can I go to other colleagues

and bring them in?

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Do they have a different viewpoint?

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And actually pushing why it's so

important that we need to progress

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things in terms of sustainability.

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So whether that is whether that's reducing

our waste to landfill, whether that's

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working with the procurement team to look

at our suppliers and our supply chain.

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It's having the courage to push

back a little bit more, even though

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I do find it a bit uncomfortable.

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I'm not someone that naturally

leans into kind of confrontation

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or difficult conversations.

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I'm finding that that's necessary when

you're in a position like sustainability.

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And I do think that's what I've learned.

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I've learned to not take the first no

as an answer, you know, to lean into it

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a bit more and explore it a bit deeper.

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Osbert: that can be pretty challenging

if you're getting knocked back , left

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feeling, well, I don't know anything

or I don't, we can't make any progress.

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How does that make you feel?

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And how do you deal with the

emotional side of being knocked back

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Libby: Yeah, I think having some

particular colleagues across the

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: 00:16:36

business, whether that's, as I've

mentioned in the asset team, or, you

297

: 00:16:39

know, my line manager or other people

within the culture team, having those,

298

: 00:16:43

those people is, is really helpful.

299

: 00:16:45

But then I also think having networks

outside of the business is really useful.

300

: 00:16:49

So as soon as I started in my position,

I was looking to see if there was

301

: 00:16:53

any networking opportunities for

individuals in similar positions to me.

302

: 00:16:57

So I joined a sustainability forum, which

is for housing professionals within the

303

: 00:17:03

Humberside area and wider Yorkshire area.

304

: 00:17:06

And actually we go to the sessions

every quarter, we have an agenda, we

305

: 00:17:11

have some topics and, you know, we

talk about maybe barriers we're facing.

306

: 00:17:16

And there hasn't been one meeting

where I've gone to that saying,

307

: 00:17:19

you know, I'm struggling with this.

308

: 00:17:21

Every single time, other people will

say, oh, you know, put the hand up,

309

: 00:17:24

same, I am too, same here, like,

what are we gonna do about that?

310

: 00:17:27

So, they don't always have the answer,

but actually, having that soundboard

311

: 00:17:33

and those individuals who, you know, can

relate to kind of what I'm going through

312

: 00:17:38

and also say, oh, you know, same here.

313

: 00:17:40

I almost feel as though I'm not

missing a trick, if that makes sense.

314

: 00:17:43

You know, it's, we're all going

through the same thing, and being

315

: 00:17:46

able to bounce ideas off each other.

316

: 00:17:48

So, you know, some people say we've tried

that, or it didn't work, don't do that, or

317

: 00:17:52

we found this supply, they're excellent.

318

: 00:17:53

You should contact them to learn more.

319

: 00:17:56

so yeah, absolutely a network,

even if it's just to have them as a

320

: 00:18:00

soundboard or just to know that other

people are struggling the same as you.

321

: 00:18:05

It sounds quite bad, but

obviously we help each other too.

322

: 00:18:07

But as I said, knowing that you're

not missing something obvious and it's

323

: 00:18:10

something that we're all going through

324

: 00:18:12

Osbert: Hmm.

325

: 00:18:13

Yeah.

326

: 00:18:13

Great.

327

: 00:18:14

And you mentioned the asset team,

, you're part of being really helpful.

328

: 00:18:17

how does that relationship help you

keep going and do what you're doing?

329

: 00:18:20

Libby: I think, do you know, it's maybe

not the most, I don't know, complex

330

: 00:18:26

answer, but I just think having friendly

faces, having very helpful individuals,

331

: 00:18:32

having people that are on your side.

332

: 00:18:35

And I'm not saying that other people

across the business aren't on my side,

333

: 00:18:38

everyone at LHP is absolutely fantastic

they're brilliant to work with, but

334

: 00:18:41

having those particular individuals

that have the same drive as you for a

335

: 00:18:45

particular topic is incredibly helpful.

336

: 00:18:48

So even if they aren't able to, you

know, perhaps change a situation

337

: 00:18:52

or help really move things along,

just having them to speak to.

338

: 00:18:56

And as I said, just having

a friendly face to go to is.

339

: 00:19:00

incredibly useful.

340

: 00:19:01

And I think we may be underestimate that

having these strong networks, not just

341

: 00:19:05

externally, like I've mentioned, but

internally as well it's so important.

342

: 00:19:09

Osbert: Yeah.

343

: 00:19:09

That really resonates.

344

: 00:19:10

I think something we talk about quite a

lot on the podcast is the thing about,

345

: 00:19:14

you know, finding who are your, well,

there's the collaborators, the people

346

: 00:19:17

you work with on a regular basis.

347

: 00:19:19

It sounds like there's some

of them in the asset team.

348

: 00:19:21

Then you've got your allies who may

be a bit further away, but people

349

: 00:19:24

who can, you can call on if you need

their support or they can be your

350

: 00:19:27

voice in the committee or whatever.

351

: 00:19:29

Then around after that, you've got the

supporters, the people who are ready

352

: 00:19:32

to get involved when the initiative

comes out they're happy to say,

353

: 00:19:34

yeah, that sounds like a good thing.

354

: 00:19:35

Libby: It's good.

355

: 00:19:36

And I know that our, one of our

directors, so the director that I sit

356

: 00:19:41

beneath, he had that same conversation

with me, you know, he said, find your

357

: 00:19:44

people, find the people that will be

our allies, that will back you, that

358

: 00:19:48

you can go to if you're having issues.

359

: 00:19:50

And I've found that that's been incredibly

useful, whether that is, you know,

360

: 00:19:54

the sustainability ambassadors, the

individuals that I know are interested

361

: 00:19:57

in anyway, or perhaps people at that

managerial level that I know I've got that

362

: 00:20:02

close relationship with, and I know that

they can help move things along if needed.

363

: 00:20:07

Osbert: So looking, looking forward then.

364

: 00:20:10

So what are you working on now?

365

: 00:20:11

Or what are you going to be

working on next that you're most

366

: 00:20:14

excited about or looking forward

to really get into grips with?

367

: 00:20:17

Libby: Yeah.

368

: 00:20:18

So, last year we became official adopters

of what they call the Sustainability

369

: 00:20:24

Reporting Standards for Social Housing.

370

: 00:20:26

So that is a reporting standard.

371

: 00:20:28

It is a framework created specifically

for social housing alongside

372

: 00:20:33

banks and developers and other,

you know, housing associations.

373

: 00:20:38

so we have signed up to that.

374

: 00:20:40

We released our first sustainability

report earlier this year.

375

: 00:20:44

So we have to report against that.

376

: 00:20:46

46 different criteria and it just ensures

that we are being transparent with how

377

: 00:20:51

we're progressing on ESG and also ensuring

that we are kept accountable as well.

378

: 00:20:55

So, you know, this is how

we're doing last year.

379

: 00:20:57

How have we progressed?

380

: 00:20:58

So as I say, we released our first

report for that earlier this year, and

381

: 00:21:02

we actually brought in a consultant

to work alongside me for that process.

382

: 00:21:06

But this year I'm doing it on my own.

383

: 00:21:08

I've had the opportunity to really run

with that myself, which is really exciting

384

: 00:21:13

so I've been working with colleagues

all across the business to collect

385

: 00:21:16

those data sets and then it'll be On

my shoulders to write that report craft

386

: 00:21:20

that narrative that really reflects how

we've progressed with sustainability

387

: 00:21:25

over the last year and i'm yeah, i'm very

excited to have the opportunity to try

388

: 00:21:30

and bring storytelling to the front of

it as well, which I think is exciting.

389

: 00:21:34

So that's what I'm doing at the minute.

390

: 00:21:36

Busy nagging people for, for datasets

and trying to weave that together

391

: 00:21:41

into some form of, of story that we

can share with customers, colleagues,

392

: 00:21:45

our investors as well as stakeholders

393

: 00:21:48

Osbert: That was just about

to be my next question.

394

: 00:21:49

Who's the audience for this report?

395

: 00:21:50

Libby: So it is a wide audience.

396

: 00:21:52

So we've got, it'll be shared

with our colleagues, LHP, our

397

: 00:21:57

residents, our customers, and

also our supply chain as well.

398

: 00:22:01

So we've got a fantastic

procurement team at LHP.

399

: 00:22:04

We've done quite a lot of work in terms

of sustainability and procurement.

400

: 00:22:08

So 20 percent of the, weighting

when tenders come in so when we're

401

: 00:22:14

evaluating tender submissions, if

people want to win a contract with

402

: 00:22:18

LHP, 20 percent of that is on ESG.

403

: 00:22:21

So they have to answer particular

questions, whether that be to do with

404

: 00:22:25

carbon emissions, net zero, we'll change

it depending on what the contract's for.

405

: 00:22:30

so yeah, we've done a

lot, a lot around that.

406

: 00:22:32

So our supply chain as well.

407

: 00:22:34

I also want to make sure it's being

pushed out to them because it's

408

: 00:22:37

important that they know how we're doing.

409

: 00:22:38

Cause I really want it to be a

two way street with our suppliers.

410

: 00:22:41

I want them to help us, but I

want to be able to help them

411

: 00:22:44

as well, wherever possible.

412

: 00:22:45

Osbert: How are you finding

that relationship with supplier?

413

: 00:22:48

Because I was speaking to I don't

think it was housing, but it was in

414

: 00:22:51

construction, and they were saying

they're really struggling to engage lot

415

: 00:22:56

of their suppliers on ESG issues because

there's such a shortage of suppliers,

416

: 00:23:02

if they can't be bothered to fill in

that tender, they'll just go somewhere

417

: 00:23:04

else and know they can get the work.

418

: 00:23:05

So they were sort of struggling with that.

419

: 00:23:07

Is that your experience?

420

: 00:23:08

Libby: Interesting, not so much.

421

: 00:23:10

I think a lot of our work has been

focused on our larger suppliers.

422

: 00:23:15

So the contracts that are

large enough that we've have

423

: 00:23:18

to do that tender competition.

424

: 00:23:19

So that's really where a lot

of our work has taken place.

425

: 00:23:24

Something that we are looking to do.

426

: 00:23:27

Currently, so this is being picked up by

finance and the procurement team, as I

427

: 00:23:31

say, wonderful colleagues, they're running

with this, which is fantastic and I

428

: 00:23:34

can't wait to see the, the outcome of it.

429

: 00:23:36

We also have quite a lot

of smaller suppliers.

430

: 00:23:39

So, you know, people have put on

our financial system, we maybe buy

431

: 00:23:42

small things of pens, pencils, we've

maybe brought them in to deliver

432

: 00:23:45

training or something like that.

433

: 00:23:47

That's where we find it quite difficult

to engage in the smaller levels and

434

: 00:23:53

we're trying to come up with a process to

collect data from those as well because

435

: 00:23:57

of course individually they're very small

suppliers but added up together it's

436

: 00:24:01

a huge percentage but where a lot of

our engagement has taken place with the

437

: 00:24:05

larger suppliers I found the majority of

the time they're absolutely excellent.

438

: 00:24:09

I think the only hurdles we do

face is sometimes the answers

439

: 00:24:14

that come back to ESG you.

440

: 00:24:16

They are quite poor and that's

not the supplier's fault.

441

: 00:24:20

A lot of the suppliers may be a

lot smaller, they haven't got the

442

: 00:24:22

resource to, you know, have an

approach to calculating carbon

443

: 00:24:27

emissions yet or something like that.

444

: 00:24:28

But something that we've done as

a business is introduce a supply

445

: 00:24:32

chain sustainability booklet.

446

: 00:24:33

So now, Every time we go out to do

a tender, so there's a competition

447

: 00:24:38

launching, that booklet will be with it.

448

: 00:24:40

So that not only outlines what

sustainability means to LHP, what we

449

: 00:24:45

expect from our suppliers, I've also

linked in a lot of free resources that I

450

: 00:24:50

just don't think businesses or a lot of

smaller businesses are actually aware of.

451

: 00:24:55

Which, yeah, which I think is going

to be quite well received, sorry, but

452

: 00:25:00

yeah, so another example, I'll just

touch on it because it's relevant to

453

: 00:25:03

what you just said there, but we had

one supplier that didn't score too great

454

: 00:25:07

on the ESG or sustainability questions,

but they still won the contract.

455

: 00:25:12

After winning that contract and they saw

that their scores, they were very keen

456

: 00:25:16

to actually sit down with me and have a

conversation about how they can improve,

457

: 00:25:19

which I just thought was brilliant.

458

: 00:25:21

So I met them at the office, we went

out for lunch, we had a conversation,

459

: 00:25:24

I highlighted all the different

resources that as a, as a business

460

: 00:25:28

of their size that they can access.

461

: 00:25:30

and yeah, it was very well received.

462

: 00:25:32

I think most of the time suppliers that

we work with are starting to recognize

463

: 00:25:37

that you're not going to keep winning

business unless this is really on

464

: 00:25:41

the top of top of your agenda, to be

honest, and that you're prioritizing it.

465

: 00:25:46

So mostly a positive experience.

466

: 00:25:48

It's just hard to capture them all when

there's so many suppliers of the business.

467

: 00:25:52

Osbert: Is there a sort of regional

network or organization that is

468

: 00:25:56

supporting SMEs to help them put in

better tenders for these sorts of pieces

469

: 00:26:02

of work, or you can connect them with?

470

: 00:26:05

Libby: Yeah, that's a good point.

471

: 00:26:06

So we have procurement frameworks.

472

: 00:26:08

So for large scale contracts and

large scale projects, there's many

473

: 00:26:11

different procurement frameworks

that people can tap into.

474

: 00:26:15

So a lot of them are based around, energy

efficiency work, so retrofit projects, so

475

: 00:26:22

they'll help when you wanted to put bids

in for say social housing decarbonisation

476

: 00:26:26

fund like I mentioned previously.

477

: 00:26:29

So if suppliers are signed up to one

of those, Frameworks, I imagine the

478

: 00:26:33

support that they could gain from

there would, would be excellent.

479

: 00:26:36

I know that these frameworks are always

present at the housing conferences.

480

: 00:26:40

I often attend a couple of those every

year and they have huge, huge stands.

481

: 00:26:44

So I think they're getting, they're

getting bigger and bigger as

482

: 00:26:47

time goes on, which is great to

483

: 00:26:49

Osbert: Well, let's hope

they're supporting them on the

484

: 00:26:50

sustainability issue as well.

485

: 00:26:52

Libby: Yeah.

486

: 00:26:53

Osbert: Okay.

487

: 00:26:54

So let's change the pace a little bit.

488

: 00:26:55

What advice would you give to someone

starting out as a sustainability manager,

489

: 00:27:01

sort of straight from university or a

similar stage in their sustainability

490

: 00:27:05

career, perhaps they're finding it's

a bit of a struggle, maybe not landed

491

: 00:27:10

in an organization that's been so

receptive and so positive, perhaps.

492

: 00:27:12

What advice would you give?

493

: 00:27:15

Libby: Yeah, it's a really good question.

494

: 00:27:17

I feel funny answering it when I

still feel as I'm learning myself, but

495

: 00:27:20

we're all always learning aren't we?

496

: 00:27:21

So.

497

: 00:27:22

I think one thing that I would

really emphasize is, there's

498

: 00:27:27

a couple of things actually.

499

: 00:27:28

So firstly, lean in to colleagues and

those wider networks across the business.

500

: 00:27:34

Whichever business you join, you

will likely have colleagues that are

501

: 00:27:37

absolute experts in what they do.

502

: 00:27:39

For sustainability, to be

successful for you to be able to

503

: 00:27:43

embed sustainability across every

single aspect of the business.

504

: 00:27:46

I think you have to have an understanding

of what all areas of the business do.

505

: 00:27:51

So actually showing an interest in

the different service areas of that

506

: 00:27:54

business, finding those colleagues

that are receptive to conversations

507

: 00:27:57

with you is absolutely key.

508

: 00:27:59

So find those internal networks, lean

into colleagues because the likelihood is

509

: 00:28:03

you'll find people that are very receptive

and very welcoming to those conversations.

510

: 00:28:08

And secondly, I'd also say that actually

having those networks helps with this

511

: 00:28:12

one, but I'd say don't worry if you have

so many questions that can't be answered.

512

: 00:28:16

So something that really struck me and

I had such terrible imposter syndrome

513

: 00:28:21

when I started my position was the fact

that I had so many different questions.

514

: 00:28:25

And nobody could answer them.

515

: 00:28:27

And I'm like, am I missing something here?

516

: 00:28:28

Like, am I seriously just being stupid?

517

: 00:28:30

Because I was asking these questions,

you know, okay, we have all these

518

: 00:28:33

properties, how are we going to fund

these, you know, retrofit measures?

519

: 00:28:36

You know, what, what heating

systems are we looking at?

520

: 00:28:39

our scope three emissions, carbon

emissions, fire gen, how are

521

: 00:28:42

we going to calculate those?

522

: 00:28:43

But actually having a lot of unanswered

questions is what I have learned.

523

: 00:28:50

make sustainability so exciting.

524

: 00:28:52

So the fact that there's all these

unanswered questions that nobody

525

: 00:28:56

knows the answer to, it actually

makes it exciting and it makes you

526

: 00:29:00

want to keep driving things forward.

527

: 00:29:03

Keep learning, keep building networks,

keep learning from the many many expects

528

: 00:29:08

that we've got across the housing

sector but any sector in sustainability

529

: 00:29:12

there's always going to be people

that you can lean into so yeah it'd

530

: 00:29:15

be lean into those internal networks

and colleagues and don't worry if

531

: 00:29:19

there's a lot of unanswered questions

532

: 00:29:21

Osbert: Absolutely you're part of

finding these solutions together,

533

: 00:29:24

that's why there's unanswered questions

because people need to come up with

534

: 00:29:27

those solutions and you can be part of

535

: 00:29:30

Libby: Exactly.

536

: 00:29:31

So we're exploring at the minute

some infrared heating systems.

537

: 00:29:34

So we want to trial those and understand

the impact that they can have.

538

: 00:29:38

As an organisation we have a target

not just to be net zero by: 2050

539

: 00:29:43

but we also have The target for all

homes to have an energy performance

540

: 00:29:47

certificate of C or above by 2030.

541

: 00:29:50

So currently, around 85 percent

of all properties are at C or

542

: 00:29:54

above, which we're very proud of.

543

: 00:29:55

The asset team have done a fantastic job

over the last, you know, 10 years really

544

: 00:29:59

driving, driving that statistic up.

545

: 00:30:01

But we then also have a lot of

our properties around 80, 85

546

: 00:30:05

percent are still on the gas grid.

547

: 00:30:07

So, you know, we're starting

to explore alternatives.

548

: 00:30:09

So if heat pumps aren't perhaps

suitable, what else can we look into?

549

: 00:30:13

So yeah, infrared is something

really exciting that we're trialing.

550

: 00:30:17

I mentioned it to some other

colleagues from, from different

551

: 00:30:20

housing associations and they said,

oh, you know, we've heard about that.

552

: 00:30:23

We'd love to have a meeting with you.

553

: 00:30:25

So I've met with them to, to

share our experiences so far.

554

: 00:30:29

And yeah, just that knowledge sharing and.

555

: 00:30:31

helping each other as you go along.

556

: 00:30:33

I just feel like we're all, we all

have the same end game in mind.

557

: 00:30:36

So it's not so much competitive and

people in housing are very receptive

558

: 00:30:40

to sharing their ups and the downs

as well, which are probably the

559

: 00:30:44

most useful thing to hear about.

560

: 00:30:46

Osbert: When we first spoke a couple

of months back you said that you've

561

: 00:30:50

been listening to a lot of the

podcasts and found them quite helpful.

562

: 00:30:53

I'm just curious because, you

know, we've put out these podcasts

563

: 00:30:57

and they go out into the ether.

564

: 00:30:58

It's not like a conversation.

565

: 00:30:59

So I'm just sort of curious what

were the issues or the areas that you

566

: 00:31:03

thought were particularly interesting

and helpful for where you are?

567

: 00:31:07

Libby: Yeah, I think one

stood out to me in particular.

568

: 00:31:09

I can't remember the gentleman's name, but

it was, they worked for Mott Macdonald.

569

: 00:31:14

You had a very detailed conversation

about engagement, and hearing

570

: 00:31:20

about how they were engaging.

571

: 00:31:21

I think they said they bring external

speakers in and different, explore

572

: 00:31:26

different topic areas with colleagues

that colleagues can, you know,

573

: 00:31:29

volunteer to attend and ask questions.

574

: 00:31:32

And for some reason that really

sparked something in me because

575

: 00:31:34

I thought, okay, if McDonald's

are doing that, they are huge.

576

: 00:31:37

I'm pretty sure aren't they multi

international, they're massive.

577

: 00:31:40

And hearing that they were doing that,

I'm finding it really yeah, successful.

578

: 00:31:46

Made me want to do that at LHP as well.

579

: 00:31:49

I was like, okay, why can't we do that?

580

: 00:31:50

So, as a knock on effect from that,

I've started inviting local Charities

581

: 00:31:55

and not just local charities,

but national charities as well

582

: 00:31:57

to come in and and deliver talks.

583

: 00:31:59

So we've had climate outreach

on so i'm sure you've heard of

584

: 00:32:03

them to do with communication.

585

: 00:32:05

They were brilliant bumblebee and

conservation trust as well that

586

: 00:32:09

people loved that in the business.

587

: 00:32:11

They absolutely loved it.

588

: 00:32:12

And I mean Even though it's not The

things that I get the most excited about.

589

: 00:32:16

So I want to talk about the fantastic

work the property team are doing on

590

: 00:32:19

retrofitting, 700 properties or look

at my new strategy, even though that's

591

: 00:32:24

what I'd like them to be excited about.

592

: 00:32:26

Having these little things that

spark people's interest and spark

593

: 00:32:31

those conversations creates that

foundational platform to build upon then.

594

: 00:32:36

So, you know, okay, you might

not be interested in my strategy

595

: 00:32:39

yet, but I knew you found that.

596

: 00:32:41

Talk about bumblebees really interesting.

597

: 00:32:43

So how can we bridge that gap and start

that relationship and conversation?

598

: 00:32:47

Yeah, I found that one really

interesting and then more recently

599

: 00:32:51

I mentioned earlier talking about

courage so there was a podcast

600

: 00:32:55

that you spoke about about courage,

but it actually came up at a Round

601

: 00:32:59

table , I attended as well previously.

602

: 00:33:02

I can't remember this lady's name.

603

: 00:33:03

And she said on that round

table, you know, I think we were

604

: 00:33:06

discussing what do we need from.

605

: 00:33:08

sustainability leaders.

606

: 00:33:09

And she just said, point

blank, we need more courage.

607

: 00:33:12

We need to be more courageous

in what we're asking for.

608

: 00:33:15

And again, that made me reflect

on some of the projects I'm trying

609

: 00:33:19

to kickstart LHP and realize that

actually I'm not being unreasonable.

610

: 00:33:23

This is what the science is saying.

611

: 00:33:25

This is what we need to be doing.

612

: 00:33:26

This is what we have the responsibility

to be doing as a business.

613

: 00:33:30

And having her say that so, I

don't know, so openly, Just yeah,

614

: 00:33:36

sparked something in me again.

615

: 00:33:37

I was like, yeah, I do need to

keep pushing things forward.

616

: 00:33:40

I'm, I'm not crazy.

617

: 00:33:41

You know, if people find

me irritating, that's fine.

618

: 00:33:43

There's a reason why I'm employed

in the business within my position.

619

: 00:33:47

So I just need to, to keep going.

620

: 00:33:49

But no, I think your podcast in

particular, I was so excited when I

621

: 00:33:53

found it because I find it very easy to

relate to, which I found really helpful.

622

: 00:33:59

So I think I've mentioned in in

this conversation previously, having

623

: 00:34:03

those external people that you

can speak to who are in a similar

624

: 00:34:06

position to you is so valuable.

625

: 00:34:08

That's what I think the podcast offers me.

626

: 00:34:12

and also, as I say, I'm still only two

and a bit, three years into my career.

627

: 00:34:16

I find it very insightful to listen

to other people through yourself.

628

: 00:34:20

I've met someone that worked

for channel four as well.

629

: 00:34:22

He was amazing to listen to.

630

: 00:34:24

So yeah, just, just learning

and listening from other people.

631

: 00:34:27

It's fantastic.

632

: 00:34:28

When I found them, I thought

I'm going to watch all of those.

633

: 00:34:31

You definitely did one on engaging

colleagues on your strategy and I found

634

: 00:34:35

that very helpful because at the time I

was finalizing my ESG frameworks, I used

635

: 00:34:40

the pointers to, to help me as well.

636

: 00:34:42

And even if I don't always use the

things you say, I find it just very

637

: 00:34:46

insightful to see how other businesses

have maybe approached things or how

638

: 00:34:50

you've helped, you know, because

obviously every organisation is different.

639

: 00:34:55

no, yeah, I love those as well, honestly.

640

: 00:34:57

I'm like, yeah, big fan.

641

: 00:34:59

Osbert: Well, that's great.

642

: 00:35:00

It's good to know.

643

: 00:35:01

Out of curiosity, what other

podcasts do you enjoy where you

644

: 00:35:04

might recommend to people as well?

645

: 00:35:06

Libby: Let me get it up on my phone.

646

: 00:35:07

So one that I enjoy,

Sustainability Uncovered.

647

: 00:35:14

It's by, is it Edie?

648

: 00:35:15

It's spelled E D I E.

649

: 00:35:17

and then there's also one called The Net

Zero Business Podcast by Gareth Kane.

650

: 00:35:23

So that I think has a similar feel to

Leadership for Sustainability in the

651

: 00:35:29

sense that it has real life people in real

positions, talking very openly about, you

652

: 00:35:35

know, what's been going well or what's

I've actually been challenging them too.

653

: 00:35:39

So that again, I often find very

relatable and the same as yours, I

654

: 00:35:43

find myself typing down lots of notes.

655

: 00:35:45

So if I'm driving, I'm like, Hey

Siri, make a note and it makes notes

656

: 00:35:48

for me as I'm, as I'm driving along.

657

: 00:35:50

So yeah, those are the, the other top two.

658

: 00:35:52

Osbert: Great stuff.

659

: 00:35:54

Any final thoughts you'd like

to share before we wrap up?

660

: 00:35:59

Libby: I think the only thing I can

think of is if anyone is perhaps on

661

: 00:36:03

the early stage of their career, or

they're at university or college and

662

: 00:36:06

stuff, and they never did, you know,

consider housing as an option, if you

663

: 00:36:11

are interested in sustainability, I

would really just urge you to look into

664

: 00:36:16

it further, because it is an absolutely

fantastic sector to learn and develop from

665

: 00:36:22

so many different fantastic individuals

and really explore so many different

666

: 00:36:27

avenues of sustainability, whether that is

social sustainability with our customers.

667

: 00:36:31

We also do fantastic work in terms

of supporting customers with money,

668

: 00:36:34

support and bills and things like

that, or whether it is more the

669

: 00:36:38

environmental side of things, looking at

properties, green spaces, water waste.

670

: 00:36:42

I could, I could go on.

671

: 00:36:43

There's so many different areas that I've

had the opportunity to, to learn about.

672

: 00:36:47

So yeah, I'd definitely say reconsider

housing if it is, you know, sustainability

673

: 00:36:51

is something you're interested in.

674

: 00:36:53

Osbert: Great.

675

: 00:36:53

That's a wonderful recommendation.

676

: 00:36:55

Thank you so much for being with us,

Libby, it's been a wonderful conversation.

677

: 00:36:59

Libby: Oh, thank you so much for

having me it's a real, real pleasure.

678

: 00:37:02

Honestly, I never thought I'd

be invited, I'm just listening

679

: 00:37:04

most of the time, it's brilliant.

680

: 00:37:06

And that you have it.

681

: 00:37:07

Lots of inspiration and insights

from Libby's experience.

682

: 00:37:11

I'll just finished by picking out three

that I think are particularly helpful.

683

: 00:37:15

First the importance of building strong

relationships with colleagues across the

684

: 00:37:19

business, not just to have the support

of senior managers when you need it,

685

: 00:37:24

but also, so you can collaborate with

colleagues from different teams to take

686

: 00:37:28

for the sustainability agenda, much more

effectively than you could do alone.

687

: 00:37:33

And two, the importance of a network

of peers across other organizations

688

: 00:37:36

who are working on similar challenges.

689

: 00:37:39

Not only can you call on them for

advice, but they can also help give you

690

: 00:37:43

the confidence to be persistent when

you face resistance or uncertainty.

691

: 00:37:47

And three, the importance of learning from

difficult conversations and situations.

692

: 00:37:53

Even though Libby clearly works in an

organization with supportive colleagues

693

: 00:37:56

and a great culture, it's still

hard work leading on sustainability.

694

: 00:38:00

But as she says, going into these

conversations to listen and understand

695

: 00:38:05

other people's perspectives and

their reality, really helps you

696

: 00:38:08

work out how you can make progress,

even when it's not so easy.

697

: 00:38:13

In the show notes, you'll find a link

to a written version of this podcast,

698

: 00:38:16

including links to some of the episodes

that Libby mentioned she'd found

699

: 00:38:19

particularly useful, alongside the

other podcasts that she recommends.

700

: 00:38:24

To get future episodes as soon as

they are released, make sure to tap

701

: 00:38:27

“follow” in apple podcasts, Spotify,

or your preferred podcast app.

702

: 00:38:32

If you're new to podcasts and are

listening to this on our website,

703

: 00:38:35

I really encourage you to take the

leap and start using a podcast app.

704

: 00:38:39

Click the "follow" button on the

audio player on our website and

705

: 00:38:42

choose apple podcasts or Spotify.

706

: 00:38:45

Once in the app, remember to follow

Leadership for Sustainability

707

: 00:38:49

and perhaps the other two

podcasts that Libby recommends.

708

: 00:38:53

If you're a sustainability

director or manager, who'd like

709

: 00:38:56

to share your experience with

peers who listen to Leadership for

710

: 00:38:59

Sustainability, just drop me an email.

711

: 00:39:02

That's osbert@realise.earth.

712

: 00:39:05

Keep up the good work and make sure

to look off yourself because the

713

: 00:39:09

world needs effective sustainability

leaders, now more than ever.

714

: 00:39:14

Bye for now.